I'll preface this by saying I am far from pleased with iTunes support for "the little guys" so far, but I did notice while checking to see if my show was moved to the correct category yet, that Apple dropped the ball and removed a commecial show "Disney Family Show" from their directory also.

Todd, I think you may be getting a bit too melodramatic, but it makes for good blog traffic. :-)

It is clear to me that if your podcast is not in the top 100 or the top 20 then you will not be found in iTunes unless the listener knows the name of the podcast and does a search or the subscriber finds that page from clicking on a link from your show website. I think that the whole iTunes podcast section is very user unfriendly. Finding podcasts beyond the front podcasting page is difficult to say the least.

Truth be told, I think what we have seen in iTunes is a cleaver promotional stunt to drive publicity and iPod sales higher. The other agenda at play here is one of building value on the podcasting page for major content providers to pay for placement on the front page. Apple used the "Indie" podcasters to kick start all of this and thus can now sell placement of major media podcasts on the "Podcast" home page. Since Apple cannot sell subscription podcasts, then it must make money in other ways besides selling iPods.

I also think that "Indie" podcasts will stay in the directory as it would be bad PR for them to remove them. The directory of "Amateur" podcasts will only grow in the directory area. But I think the separation between “Amateur” and “Professional” podcasts will widen over time. This separation is demonstrated by the lack of linkage between being listed in the podcast directory and having a podcast dedicated page.

Rob Greenlee
WebTalk Radio

I agree Rob that the whole iTunes handling of Podcasts is far from perfect. There are Podcasts missing, and not everyone that feels their podcast should be on the front page is on the front page which causes jealousy. Subscribing is not the easiest for most users and the RSS tags Apple uses did not match with what was already being used. But look at it this way...

They have been the ONLY major company to even attempt to bring podcasts to the masses. my own family did not understand how to download or find podcasts, or even what they were. When a new user tried to download and use ipodderX or FeedDemon or any of the other podcatchers out there, they found out that none of them were easy to use and offered ALL the podcasts available or offered a smaller podcast to a user as prominently displayed as a podcastalley favorite.

There is no perfect solution right now, but I only know that my listeners increased by 5 times on the week that iTunes 4.9 was released. Yours and Todd's had to increase by that much if not more. What other event in the world would have caused this type of listener increase to podcasts. What in the world would have caused that many people that never ever heard of a podcast to all of a sudden look for podcasts to download? What other company in the world could have released a single program that would have brought podcasts to the masses other then Apple.

You're doing USA Today or Newsweek interviews (not certain which one you said, sorry), Todd does radio and mainstream news organization interviews because everyone wants to know about podcasting. I think the world of both you and Todd, but sometimes the complaining overshadows what the benefits actually were. Things will get smoothed over and I'm certain 5.0 will have more wrinkles ironed out, but when I hear all the complaining it's like giving a starving man a steak dinner and having him complain that the steak wasn't done right.

Let's look at this in 3 months and see what other companies have jumped on the bandwagon and what they've done. If podcasting as we know it is around in 5 years, we'll all look back at 4.9 and find that no other program or company or event had a more dramatic impact on bringing podcasting to the masses.

Surfbits,
I agree with you on all of your points. I do feel that we as users and content creators we need to speak up about these problems with iTunes as that is the only way they will get fixed. Sure, Apple has driven attention and listeners to many shows, but they should still do better.

We all know that companies like Apple are driven by profits and thus do not always have the best interest of everyone one in mind when they do things. I just want them to know that they are not fooling anyone and that they need to be a good citizen in this community and not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Also keep in mind that I had more listeners to my show before podcasting started. Podcasting has brought 700 new technology shows online in the past 7 months.

Podcasting is not really about bringing content to the masses, even though Apple seems to still think that the only thing that really matters is mass media content.

Podcasting is really about reaching small niche topic audiences. Sure some podcasts will have large audiences, but for Apple to decide that the smaller shows do not have value is a long term mistake.

Rob Greenlee
WebTalk Radio

Rob,
And I agree with you that we deserve to see improvements from Apple with iTunes. It's the natural progression of things. If we do not let them know what needs to be fixed, no one will.

My point is that Apple is catching hell from the core group they've helped the most. If mighty Microsoft would have gotten off their dead behinds and introduced a podcatching client in MIE 7, podcasting would have been far ahead of where it is now. Instead we've gotten some half-baked promise of RSS in MIE7 next year maybe. There have been several opportunities for other companies to embrace podcasting, only Apple, I repeat, ONLY Apple has stepped up to the plate.

As for profits, who out there reading this conversation would be so foolish as not to expect Apple to try to make a profit from advertising? Just look at this webpage we're commenting on, it's covered in Ads. Your website, my website, they are covered in Ads. We ALL try to make a profit, it's not against the law and God knows we have a right to a free market profit.

Finally, in your case Rob, I totally understand the situation. Your radio show along with Inside Mac and maybe Your Mac Life and a very few others were here many years before Todd started GeekNews podcast last year. You cannot be happy with the competition, but I think a rising tide lifts all ships. My small podcast and the podcast that talks about a specific illness, or a specific trade, or any niche group deserves to be heard by those that want to hear it. Apple has given that podcast the opportunity to be heard. The mass media content would have been there whether Apple did iTunes 4.9 or not. They were coming in the market before iTunes, you know it and you even had shows on that fact that I listened to.

Finally, there is room for many in this podcasting arena. I still listen to your show, I listen to Todds and I listen to others. Just because a new Mac user finds my podcast and likes it and listens to it, doesn't mean she's going to drop listening to yours. If your content gets away from the tech aspect and wonders off down a different road, I'll drop you in a heartbeat. But I'd drop you for that reason whether there were other podcasts to listen to or not. Content is the bottom line, not Apple, not mass media, not competition.

We both agree on all the main points here.. I just felt it's too easy to blame Apple and get a bunch of traffic to your weblog from all the Apple haters. You might as well talk about Robert Scoble and increase your technorati hits that way. Now THAT'S cheap commercialism, not Apple placing Ads on iTunes Podcasting pages. :-) I enjoyed the conversation, and I think I'll do a comment piece on my website about what we've discussed. Maybe it will help drive more traffic to my blog! :-)

Well, I know that I don't have the cred of other folks that have posted here but maybe that's a good thing. I've been listening to podcasts almost since day one (at least Adam Curry's). The problem (and remember that perception is reality) is that when a bigger business gets involved with a smaller one, things normally fall by the wayside.

Like the concern over the "loss" of smaller "indie" podcasts in lieu of pushing more polished larger ones. Now I read above that in some cases there were people that experienced a five-fold increase in subscribers and that's great for you. But what about us, the little guys? I just recorded and posted my first two podcasts (I'm still trying to crack the RSS nut) but I'm concerned that I'll never get my foot in the door.

Will Apple get behind and promote new show? Will they set up "families" like Adam Curry’s or Techpodcasts.com? I doubt it. Do I use iTunes to get podcasts onto my mp3 device? No, I still use my trusty ipodder lemon. There have been problems with iPods, iTunes and a host of other Apple products and services. Don't forget the "forward thinking" Mr. Jobs is in the process of suing a number of pro-Apple websites, essentially biting the hand that feeds him. You would think in the ongoing battle between Apple and Microsoft, Mr. Jobs would be going out of his way to ensure that he brings as many people “into the fold” as possible. So this silence does not bode well. With technology advancing and other mp3 players flooding the market you’d think that Apple would understand that they player will become irrelevant and the content is where the future is. Isn’t that what they’re trying to do with music minus helping/promoting “indie” bands?

I guess we all either fear or dislike change but my concern is that now with Apple getting involved with podcasting it will be very difficult for those of us to get what we think is our great show out to the masses. I mean don’t we all want the chance to be as successful as Adam Curry or Todd Cochrane?

That’s my take,
Dutch DeGay
Dutch’s Digital Blast Podcast
DutchDeGay.com

Hi Dutch, Nice to meet you...
Add your feed to iTunes and tens of thousands of users have the chance to find your podcast that never ever would have heard of it or you before iTunes came online with 4.9, how would you promote yourself if iTunes wasn't around? There's no difference, just do the same things.
You have even more chance to be succesful now then you would have ever had before, just get moving and get your podcast info out to the users and let them make the decision of what to listen to or not.
Good luck and if you need some steps to follow for your podcast, make sure you get Todd's book and get on a couple podcast forums and ask questions. Nice to have met you.